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Borys S
PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2021 6:56 pm 
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So recently, I've been having doubts about modifying my 1.8 BA further. In terms of performance mods, since the engine code IS the same, would a set of Fast Road Cams fit right in? If they do, then I may consider keeping it and then spending more on mods. Can anyone help me out with this?


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HMT
PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:52 am 
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Yes they do. You have just to make sure that you get the correct ones.
MX5 NA have HLAs, NBs have solid lifters. As most BA have HLAs, you should most likely get NA cams.


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Borys S
PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 3:46 pm 
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HMT wrote:
Yes they do. You have just to make sure that you get the correct ones.
MX5 NA have HLAs, NBs have solid lifters. As most BA have HLAs, you should most likely get NA cams.
That's good to know. Would it also be possible to adjust the timing and get some more power that way?


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danu91
PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2021 10:37 am 
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HMT wrote:
Yes they do. You have just to make sure that you get the correct ones.
MX5 NA have HLAs, NBs have solid lifters. As most BA have HLAs, you should most likely get NA cams.


This is accurate. But you can get Toda 264 In/Ex cams from MX-5 NA/NB and convert yours to solid lifters. (Toda sells a conversion kit)
You will also need to buy adjustable cam gears and a Locked Lash Adjuster KIT or Inner-Shim Conversion KIT.
https://www.toda-racing.co.jp/en/product/cam/bp-1.html

It's not the easiest or the cheapest mod in the world. But it does work. (I make 150WHP with Toda 264)

PS. There is something called an exhintake mod (ex-intake mod). This is common in Australia for MX-5s. They grab a spare stock exhaust cam and remove the last lobe and use it as an intake cam. Apparently it works, but I've not tried it myself. You can google mx-5 exhintake mod.


Last edited by danu91 on Wed May 26, 2021 10:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Kullman
PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2021 11:53 am 
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danu91 wrote:
It's not the easiest or the cheapest mod in the world. But it does work. (I make 150WHP with Toda 264).


That's a great figure. What mileage figures are you getting after the mod?

I know is a strange question but I would want to keep the car as a daily, and if it drinks one liter every mile wouldn't work for me.


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HMT
PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2021 3:04 pm 
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I can hardly imagine that a stock BA engine/ECU combo with just 264° cams would make anywhere near that...


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Kullman
PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2021 4:44 pm 
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I have been thinking of getting a camshaft set in order to increase power (after i buy the car, of course) but I have some doubts about it.

I mean... I have seen really powerful cars which are great on track, but were unable to get a smooth ride when commuting in town, and that wouldn't work for me.

Also, if the car have 150 whp, but it gets less than 10 mpg... i prefer to stay underpowered.

I really think than getting a standalone ECU like Speeduino makes more sense if you are keeping your 323F as a daily (or daily-ish) car, cause you can change the behaviour of the car using a stock or ECO map when you are commuting, and a performance, more agressive, map if you are driving for fun.


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danu91
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 10:37 am 
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HMT wrote:
I can hardly imagine that a stock BA engine/ECU combo with just 264° cams would make anywhere near that...


Mybad. I also have 10.5:1 MX-5 NB pistons and ITBs.

With just pistons & ECU, I made 130WHP.
With Pistons, ECU & ITB, I made 138WHP. (ITB sounds super nice but it didn't really add much power)
With Pistons, ECU, ITB & Cams, I made 150WHP.
All 3 results were from DynoJet while running E20 at around 37*C - 40*C room temperature.

Here's the Dyno Video
https://youtu.be/HU-freNWnkU



Image


Last edited by danu91 on Wed Jun 02, 2021 11:25 am, edited 2 times in total.

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danu91
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 11:14 am 
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Kullman wrote:
I have been thinking of getting a camshaft set in order to increase power (after i buy the car, of course) but I have some doubts about it.

I mean... I have seen really powerful cars which are great on track, but were unable to get a smooth ride when commuting in town, and that wouldn't work for me.

Also, if the car have 150 whp, but it gets less than 10 mpg... i prefer to stay underpowered.

I really think than getting a standalone ECU like Speeduino makes more sense if you are keeping your 323F as a daily (or daily-ish) car, cause you can change the behaviour of the car using a stock or ECO map when you are commuting, and a performance, more agressive, map if you are driving for fun.


I mean... I have seen really powerful cars which are great on track, but were unable to get a smooth ride when commuting in town, and that wouldn't work for me.
- This is true. A lot (I mean a lot) of research and a very good tuner could setup a fun car which still drives nicely in traffic.

Also, if the car have 150 whp, but it gets less than 10 mpg... i prefer to stay underpowered.
- If you have the BP engine, I really don't know how to get good gas mileage while making good power as you need to be in high revs to make said power in NA.

I really think than getting a standalone ECU like Speeduino makes more sense if you are keeping your 323F as a daily (or daily-ish) car, cause you can change the behaviour of the car using a stock or ECO map when you are commuting, and a performance, more agressive, map if you are driving for fun.
- Please correct me if I'm wrong. But I don't think these ancient 90s ECUs are remappable. At least not without literally replacing resistors / etc. Also I think the stock ECU won't support COP setups. Also if you go with performance cams, you really need to be able to fine-tune the ECU to get most out of it and I don't think the stock ECU will let you do that.


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Kullman
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 4:56 pm 
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danu91 wrote:
Please correct me if I'm wrong. But I don't think these ancient 90s ECUs are remappable. At least not without literally replacing resistors / etc. Also I think the stock ECU won't support COP setups. Also if you go with performance cams, you really need to be able to fine-tune the ECU to get most out of it and I don't think the stock ECU will let you do that.


I was talking about Speeduino, which is a standalone ECU based on Arduino.

It's supposed to be a DIY solution, but there are plug&play ECUs for the MX-5 NA which, I guess, should be compatible with the 323F BA.

https://speeduino.com/shop/plug-and-pla ... duino.html


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maZZda
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 10:44 pm 
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Why not just stuck a Turbo in it and put some bigger injectors of nearest resistance to the stock ones.
I did that on 1.5 Z5 BA and it worked just fine.. (STOCK ECU)
(for 7 monts thou..) but after rebuild with slightly larger gaps on the piston rings all is good..
and got the power more than 50% up..
Here is what i did:

https://www.club323f.com/forum/viewtopi ... 14&t=60843

I have to mention that i did alot of "scrap tuning" for some low costs, but it worked just fine.. :lol:
Still working.. :D


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Kullman
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 11:45 pm 
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That wouldn't be road legal in Spain.

I wonder if it would be possible to swap an BP-VE from a Miata NB to a 323F BA...


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maZZda
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:15 am 
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Kullman wrote:
That wouldn't be road legal in Spain.

I wonder if it would be possible to swap an BP-VE from a Miata NB to a 323F BA...


Almost any power related mod is illegal almost anyware, soo...
You could probably fit it, it should not be that dificult.
Maybe you'll have problem with the mount at the timing belt, as miata's don't have one there..
Maybe the head has no mounting surface or attachment holes..
Can't say for sure..
Someone has to do more than "google it"..


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danu91
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:24 am 
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Kullman wrote:
danu91 wrote:
Please correct me if I'm wrong. But I don't think these ancient 90s ECUs are remappable. At least not without literally replacing resistors / etc. Also I think the stock ECU won't support COP setups. Also if you go with performance cams, you really need to be able to fine-tune the ECU to get most out of it and I don't think the stock ECU will let you do that.


I was talking about Speeduino, which is a standalone ECU based on Arduino.

It's supposed to be a DIY solution, but there are plug&play ECUs for the MX-5 NA which, I guess, should be compatible with the 323F BA.

https://speeduino.com/shop/plug-and-pla ... duino.html


Mybad. I read *map* as remapping the old ECU. Maybe I'm going blind.
I've heard really good things about Speeduino, but haven't tried myself.
The link you gave is for a MX-5 NA6, which is B6 (not BP). So this model will not work with the 1.8 BP 323F I assume.
But I'm pretty sure you can find a plug and play solutions for BP as well.
Haltec is also very good for DIY tuning...


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danu91
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:31 am 
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maZZda wrote:
Why not just stuck a Turbo in it and put some bigger injectors of nearest resistance to the stock ones.
I did that on 1.5 Z5 BA and it worked just fine.. (STOCK ECU)
(for 7 monts thou..) but after rebuild with slightly larger gaps on the piston rings all is good..
and got the power more than 50% up..
Here is what i did:

https://www.club323f.com/forum/viewtopi ... 14&t=60843

I have to mention that i did alot of "scrap tuning" for some low costs, but it worked just fine.. :lol:
Still working.. :D


Turbo charging a stock 1.8 non vvt makes a lot of sense. Stock pistons are 8.5:1 if I'm not mistaken, so you can probably run decent boost without knocking. Stock cam overlap is also not bad for a turbo.


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danu91
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:51 am 
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Kullman wrote:
That wouldn't be road legal in Spain.

I wonder if it would be possible to swap an BP-VE from a Miata NB to a 323F BA...


Are the authorities super serious about enforcing the law against mods?
(for us in Thailand, anything except an engine swap doesn't require any paper work. Exhaust sound limit is 95dB at 4500rpm)

by the way, isn't BP-VE a JDM VVT high compression MX-5 NB engine? If that's the case, maybe it will be easier to swap a non vvt NB. But it should physically fit.


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Kullman
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:40 pm 
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danu91 wrote:
Are the authorities super serious about enforcing the law against mods?
(for us in Thailand, anything except an engine swap doesn't require any paper work. Exhaust sound limit is 95dB at 4500rpm)


Almost anything requires some paperwork here in Spain, and legalizing a turbo in a N/A engine is completely impossible right now.

There are some people which use supercharger kits in some cars, and they remove the parts when they go to the annual technical inspection, but removing a turbo would be more difficult, I guess.

If you go to the technical inspection with some illegal parts on your car, they simply wouldn't aprove the car, and it wouldn't be allowed to run.


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danu91
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:56 am 
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Kullman wrote:
danu91 wrote:
Are the authorities super serious about enforcing the law against mods?
(for us in Thailand, anything except an engine swap doesn't require any paper work. Exhaust sound limit is 95dB at 4500rpm)


Almost anything requires some paperwork here in Spain, and legalizing a turbo in a N/A engine is completely impossible right now.

There are some people which use supercharger kits in some cars, and they remove the parts when they go to the annual technical inspection, but removing a turbo would be more difficult, I guess.

If you go to the technical inspection with some illegal parts on your car, they simply wouldn't aprove the car, and it wouldn't be allowed to run.


Damn! That's awful. Didn't Spain get one of these engines?
    KF-DE / KF-ZE
    KL-DE / KL-ZE

Especially KF-DE, as it's a bolt on swap for sure. 323F came from factory with that engine for some markets and I have personally seen people swapping KF-DEs without too much effort and make good power.
KL-DE should also fit, but I have not seen in person.

PS.
There are wayyyyyyyyy too many compatible transmission models for these cars / engines.
But the drive shafts are not always the same (different length as well as different amount of splines), so make sure to check everything fits before you pull the trigger.
I use this for generic info, but do not depend on it too much as they are reffering to US spec cars and it's not always accurate for the rest of the world.


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Kullman
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 12:26 pm 
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V6s are available in Spain, but I wanted the BP because of the aftermarket available for this engine.

There are also Ford Probe/Mazda MX6 based in the KL-ZE, and they can be found for a reasonable price (around 400-500 US$ for the engine).

I wish I were a little shorter to fit on a Mazda MX-3, because I love the shape of that car...


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Kullman
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:20 pm 
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I'm thinking very seriously about getting an Audi A3 1.8T instead of the 323F...


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jinglebells
PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:33 pm 
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Kullman wrote:
I'm thinking very seriously about getting an Audi A3 1.8T instead of the 323F...

Check the Audi's reputation for drinking oil ....


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Kullman
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:42 am 
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jinglebells wrote:
Kullman wrote:
I'm thinking very seriously about getting an Audi A3 1.8T instead of the 323F...

Check the Audi's reputation for drinking oil ....


Thank you for the advice... I have seen than that's a serious issue with that car.

So... switching again... to a Suzuki Swift GTI Mk2.

I really would prefer a 323F, but there aren't too many around, and the ones I find are either too expensive (around 3.500 €) or too far away.


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danu91
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:27 am 
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Kullman wrote:
jinglebells wrote:
Kullman wrote:
I'm thinking very seriously about getting an Audi A3 1.8T instead of the 323F...

Check the Audi's reputation for drinking oil ....


Thank you for the advice... I have seen than that's a serious issue with that car.

So... switching again... to a Suzuki Swift GTI Mk2.

I really would prefer a 323F, but there aren't too many around, and the ones I find are either too expensive (around 3.500 €) or too far away.


3,500 € sounds way too much for a 323F / Astina BA. Unless it's very low mileage and in perfect condition. How about MX-3 / MX-5 ?


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Kullman
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:37 pm 
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I'm almost 6'4"... I don't think I will fit in a MX-3, but I will try anyways.


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