Hello all,

I love the 323, and to declare an interest (!) which you all know, I have owned 7 of them .....

But ... time is moving on. I'm wondering if I should really be using a 17 year-old car as my daily transport to get to work! I have bits of 323 scattered around the house and garage, in the hope of keeping it running for ever .. but of course it won't happen.

A newer 323 (1.6 auto, 2003 ish BJ) is my only obvious option, and the road tax for that is £300 a year now, and the mpg a relatively poor 35 ish on my short runs .... so where are we all going to go? There are plenty of old / cheap cars now with 60mpg and £30 road tax, but I would be as bored as h--l in an Astra diesel or similar, and the Mazda 3 just isn't the same as a 323, it doesn't "feel right" to me. Is there anything on the used market that does feel as good?

The longer you own a 323, the more you appreciate the ergonomics, the design, the quality (except the built-in rust ).

What do you all think?

17 years old? Pahahaha, my two are 20 & 22, because I love my F's, I don't care about the cost of road tax, or mpg, even though it means scrimping and saving to run them, I just get on with it, secure in the knowledge I'm not driving something built after 1998 and designed by a committee

Nothing worthwhile is ever easy

I will drive mine untill it's 323years old.

Hi jinglebells,

not sure what your budget is and what exactly you need/want in a 'daily driver', but here's my 2¢ worth

I have a 94 BA 323, 04 BK SP23 and 12 BL2 3MZR-CD (2.2l). Yes the 3's are different, but all cars will be. I find the 3's a more 'remote' driving experience (except road noise, I wish that was more remote).

Of these three, I like the
- BA for simplicity and that slightly 'rawer' feeling (i.e. not as remote)
- the SP23 for its wonderful dependability
- but the BL2 diesel I like the best, as it sorts some of the BK's failings (e.g. totally numb steering, high 5th gear, fuel economy or lack thereof) and has a very well sorted suspension given the extra engine weight, and a ripper of a diesel engine- torquey, rev happy, frugal and able to make other cars look quite silly.

Part of the problem is newer cars, as they meet higher and higher standards, become more remote from the road due to the extra equipment/safety/structure. As a result you don't 'feel' the road, the engine, the car sensations. You can't even here when something's going wrong.

Another part is 'bracket creep', both in size and weight. My Mazda 3, regarded as small-medium in Oz, is the same size as a full-size in Oz from 30 years ago- that's two sizes different.

So to me the partial solution, going the tactility route, is to step down a size because the cars will be physically more similar in size and weight. So my suggestion is, if your budget stretches, to perhaps look at a just-superseded (e.g. 2014/15) Mazda 2. My parents have one and it's a (relatively) fun drive, good steering, reasonable performance, willing 1.5l engine (the slightly more powerful one) and is perfect for a commute. Even the auto (parents!) can be made to work well. Yes it's small (esp. the boot) but overall not too bad unless you need someone in the back.

Other suggestions:
- BRZ/86, surely there's some 2nd hand ones by now?
- For a left-field option, perhaps try (just try) a BL2 3 MZR-CD (2.2l version) and see if you like it?
- Fiesta ST (my test drive was a hoot)?

Far, far, left-field (like out-of-field) suggestion: Move to Oz, there's plenty to adopt down here and they're rust-free..!

[b]Patrick[/b]

This is an interesting subject. Just over a year ago a young lady wrote off my BA. Had this not happened to it I would still have been driving it as my everyday transport. I did not have the heart to source another and so I followed a different route. Alfa Romeo 147 2 litre twin spark. Fast and full of character but with no rust! Recently I changed this for a later JTDM version in black which manages 58 mpg from 130 bhp.

This is not an Alfa advert but if if a BA becomes terminal than better this than Ford/Vauxhall!

My only gripe is the distributor design. Rust can be defeated if you really want to own the car but you're looking at complete strip and dip the chassis to be 100% certain.
The ba has only two cars similar, the Ford puma 1.7 (or the racing edition) or the mazda 6 mps. The 3 mps doesn't have the ĺooks for me.
Eventually I want to use the ba frame for a pickup design and the puma to stick a zxi in it.
Another 323f I want to use the rx8 engine in it.
If I'll be fighting for years to keep them working so be it. These mazda are special and after scrapping one like an idiot I'm not going to do it again. Even if written off I'll fix it back up. Do need to get the blueprints for the ba for 3d printing lol

I've always fancied a pck up project with an F, even more so after seeing the mcm v roadkill subarute episode

[quote="smurf182"]I've always fancied a pck up project with an F, even more so after seeing the mcm v roadkill subarute episode[/quote]
You can give me a hand then. Gonna use an l200 ladder frame. Really rigid and almost the right length. Plus by design it would allow for space under the seats to give better height room. The ladder is in a -_- shape with the wheels higher than the chassis and you obviously don't lose ground clearance.
Bit concerned of the mazda engine design. The L200 uses straight 4 with gearbox in line with engine. I guess you could weld the diff and link it with prop shaft for permanent 4x4

So, what I'm seeing in my head there Paul is a 323F/Baha racer hybrid, with a KLZE

I've basically build the 323F the way I want it. Added extra's such as A/C and leather, fitted coilovers, spend extra on a nicer set of 17" winter wheels and of course the KLZE.

However, I still find myself looking at other cars just because as far as comfort goes it is lacking. I'm not really bothered by the ride quality but more about wind noise. My exhaust makes a bit of noise but wind noise is something that has been bothering me since the beginning. Also reliability is not great with me. It always starts and drives but there is always something broken or about the break which drives me insane at times. Every time I fix something I think I have replaced just about everything on this car and then something else breaks that I haven't yet replaced.

If it ever stops breaking I would probably keep driving it for a long time though just because it drives so nice in corners and the sound with the full stainless exhaust and KLZE are super nice!

Sneatz I think you need to think what really makes that car unique to you and upgrade the weak parts and so forth. For my ba the engine and the body shape are my crucial values. I like the dash also.
The seats are nice but they need to be longer as I'm too tall for them.
Mechanically underneath is change everything to keep the car safe, reliable and fun. For anyone that is ready to give up on their car I'd say go slow and strip it, protect it against corrosion and then change things as you need.
For wind noise you should start with door seals and window seals. Check everything. On my ba, the windows need new seals and the driver door is dented (both windows are scratched atrociously near the mirrors so I need to change that.
Don't give up on old cars. I've seen someone turn a 911 classic into electric drive and upgrade the brakes for safety (and lights) while the car mostly looks like it always did inside and out

Some interesting suggestions here! Thank you to all the above posters.

For me, 4 of my seven 323s have been automatic, and now I'm converted, along with my other half. We still have a manual BA but don't drive it - the choice always falls to the automatic!

So ... I have checked the BL 2.2 and there don't seem to be any autos - maybe this wasn't an option when they were new.

Alfas are definitely best as a manual - and I can see that as a direct successor to a BA, yes. But not a successor to an auto BJ .

I have foolishly tried a new shape (2015) Mazda 3 auto (2.0), and that's the closest I've found so far, but they are still £10K, not complaining because they seem to be worth that, but I prefer the budget end of the market! My BJ was 6 years old when I bought it.

Will keep thinking.
Open to any further suggestions!

[quote="pitrack_1"]Hi jinglebells,

... So my suggestion is, if your budget stretches, to perhaps look at a just-superseded (e.g. 2014/15) Mazda 2. My parents have one and it's a (relatively) fun drive, good steering, reasonable performance, willing 1.5l engine (the slightly more powerful one) and is perfect for a commute. Even the auto (parents!) can be made to work well. Yes it's small (esp. the boot) but overall not too bad unless you need someone in the back.


[b]Patrick[/b][/quote]
Thank you Patrick, I have browsed on line about the Mazda 2 auto and it does look a sensible choice, road tax only £150 and mpg 35 to 40. Age is about 2011 year onwards, so they are getting into my criteria!
They are still about £6K here for a decent one. Yes they are a bit small.
Note: When I search I also get the "old old" shape Mazda 2 "auto" and I did try one of those, it was awful - it's not a proper auto.

Hi jinglebells,

sorry I didn't realise you wanted an auto. Yes most of the (now older) Japanese diesels are manual. They say in Oz it's because of the "euro market where they prefer diesels" but I think it was just the Japanese market never had to deal with that torque and hadn't developed the auto boxes to cope.

Some other 'left-field' suggestions given your latest posts. I'll stick to Japanese/Korean here.

The newer Kia Cerato and Hyundai i30 are very good. The latest (just new) i30 is excellent by all reports. I suspect they're very cheap in the UK? Kia gives a 7yr (yes 7) unlimited km warranty in Oz and has done so for years, that says something alone. CVT/Auto is available with their diesels. Dunno about their suspension tuning elsewhere though- they do tune locally for Oz conditions so hopefully you lot get a 'Euro' tune.

Others are older Nissan 200SX (180SX? Silvia?)? Smaller Lexus of some sort? Even a (non-thrashed) WRX?

Yes the 'old-old' Mazda2 won't be as nice.

Some advice about the newer Mazda2 auto: it's adaptive and best left in 'normal mode' where it's uncanny. It's the best auto box I've driven (albeint not that many). Whereas some autos try to outhink you, this one doesn't. It will quickly learns driving styles and possibly remembers them between drivers. Drive gently and it'll behave quietly and economically but put your foot down quickly and it will change down and get going. Start driving in a 'sporty' manner (e. g. bit of urban 'sportiness' around the local suburban streets up to 60km/h) and it will hold the gears, even change down upon braking blipping the revs, etc. Only times Ive caught it out are:
- plant foot coming out of a sharp (<20km/h) corner, esp. uphill- it 'will kick right down and thrash its way to redline in 1st for no good reason, losing acceleration in the process.
- once on one of our undulating freeways where it hunted up and down relentlessly.
Don't use the 'sports' mode where it loses its brain altogether all it does is needlessly hold the gears and thrash to the redline. It's actually slower and very unpleasant!

[b]Patrick[/b]

[quote="pitrack_1"]Hi jinglebells,

sorry I didn't realise you wanted an auto. Yes most of the (now older) Japanese diesels are manual. They say in Oz it's because of the "euro market where they prefer diesels" but I think it was just the Japanese market never had to deal with that torque and hadn't developed the auto boxes to cope.

Some other 'left-field' suggestions given your latest posts. I'll stick to Japanese/Korean here.

The newer Kia Cerato and Hyundai i30 are very good. The latest (just new) i30 is excellent by all reports. I suspect they're very cheap in the UK? Kia gives a 7yr (yes 7) unlimited km warranty in Oz and has done so for years, that says something alone. CVT/Auto is available with their diesels. Dunno about their suspension tuning elsewhere though- they do tune locally for Oz conditions so hopefully you lot get a 'Euro' tune.

Others are older Nissan 200SX (180SX? Silvia?)? Smaller Lexus of some sort? Even a (non-thrashed) WRX?

Yes the 'old-old' Mazda2 won't be as nice.

Some advice about the newer Mazda2 auto: it's adaptive and best left in 'normal mode' where it's uncanny. It's the best auto box I've driven (albeint not that many). Whereas some autos try to outhink you, this one doesn't. It will quickly learns driving styles and possibly remembers them between drivers. Drive gently and it'll behave quietly and economically but put your foot down quickly and it will change down and get going. Start driving in a 'sporty' manner (e. g. bit of urban 'sportiness' around the local suburban streets up to 60km/h) and it will hold the gears, even change down upon braking blipping the revs, etc. Only times Ive caught it out are:
- plant foot coming out of a sharp (<20km/h) corner, esp. uphill- it 'will kick right down and thrash its way to redline in 1st for no good reason, losing acceleration in the process.
- once on one of our undulating freeways where it hunted up and down relentlessly.
Don't use the 'sports' mode where it loses its brain altogether all it does is needlessly hold the gears and thrash to the redline. It's actually slower and very unpleasant!

[b]Patrick[/b][/quote]

This post makes me want to tear the engine and gearbox out and stick an electric forklift engine and battery pack. No gearbox at all then to worry about or maintain. Just my foot and batteries lol

[quote="nafre"]
This post makes me want to tear the engine and gearbox out and stick an electric forklift engine and battery pack. No gearbox at all then to worry about or maintain. Just my foot and batteries lol[/quote]

Not a bad idea. Put one front & rear and you could have your AWD / permanent 4WD 323.

Alternatively 4 small(ish) motors, one at each wheel, electronically controlled and drop the whole drivetrain altogether. Personally this is the way I think cars will go if they go the electric route.

[b]Patrick[/b]

I'm thinking more two small engines on the rear axle, add one or two alternators each to reduce waste and increase range.
Using agm battery, you're looking at around 10kw per 200kg. Depending on motors used (seen a few that produce around 100nm each with 600nm peak!!!)
It's possible and would create better weight distribution and rather good power. I'm thinking to dismantle a dyson electric motor and enlarge it, they spin at ridiculous speeds.
Oh and using some sort of potentiometer in the steering column you could, if you use two motors, to have a faux differential by altering speed controller between the wheels.
Electric is a lot of potential. I've heard of cars with 1mw battery power (obviously lithium ion), that same car has torque vectoring software allowing for variable speed between the wheels. I do apologise for going too in depth with everything, I got a lot of time to use my head and research at work

[quote="pitrack_1"]Hi jinglebells,

The newer Kia Cerato and Hyundai i30 are very good. The latest (just new) i30 is excellent by all reports. I suspect they're very cheap in the UK? Kia gives a 7yr (yes 7) unlimited km warranty in Oz and has done so for years, that says something alone. CVT/Auto is available with their diesels. Dunno about their suspension tuning elsewhere though- they do tune locally for Oz conditions so hopefully you lot get a 'Euro' tune.


[b]Patrick[/b][/quote]

Hi Patrick, and thank you again for the help. Yes, I had started to consider Hyundai / Kia, interesting you call it "Cerato" there, over here it must be the "Cee'd" - yes silly name, complete with apostrophe. The Cerato model marketed here finished in about 2007 when the Cee'd came out.

I think the general design of Kia models is ok, but the suspension is the poorest part, improving all the time so I guess a newer Cee'd would be as good as an old BJ.

I read this topic few times and always ask my self same question.
Topic name start with: "Where do we go from here?"
That is question that i ask my self..
Ok, I understand that many of 323F cars are gone for few years now. But what i don't understood is where are people from this club?
No one writing on any of sections.
Active members are several (5-15 people maybe) that are active almost every day.

[quote="Stjepan"]I read this topic few times and always ask my self same question.
. But what i don't understood is where are people from this club?
No one writing on any of sections.
Active members are several (5-15 people maybe) that are active almost every day.[/quote]

Hello
I'm still here! The 323F has become a specialist car now for us, and for everyone else it's just a cheap runabout, and those owners won't care enough to join a club!

They cost more to fix than they are worth, and some people run a car like that, not thinking of the pleasure from such a well designed vehicle.

I guess some owners have gone to the Mazda3, or Ford Focus, or Toyota Auris. Ugh.

There is nothing quite like the 323. But one of mine is dying as we speak.

I own 2 BA's now.As far as i can tell, there is nothing like the 323F handling on the road(at this price tag).The quality that the F provides i didn't found it in any of that year cars..
I understand that they are rarer now, but there is more into this comfort that we feel in them.
For example, the f that i bought 4 years ago(Anti) is more pleasuring driving compared to the stock F i got for my Wife.I didn't understad why, but the coilovers and 17" wheels didn't spoil the car overall feel that much.Now when i drive both(our baby is 5 days old) and my wife stays at home and i have to dealt with all the documents and stuff i feel the silver F more easy to drive than the Blue one.The blue one is with heavier steering, although it is the same system,the brakes are heavier,although i change the brake fluid,the clutch is softer(that is a + here) but that's all.The starter makes some strange noises occasionally,the engine is running strange but it's pulling strong..Maybe i was used to the new config. of Anti and now i feel the Blue one short on power on some turns, i don't know really.All those things in mind makes me thinking that if you are taking good care for your car it will answer with the same all the miles along.So the feel that i have with Anti is one(considering the cares i take for it) and the feel with the Blue is another(it has 7 years abusing on our roads after Italy) I will try to make the Blue drive/ride comfort feel the same as the other.And will try to keep it in stock shape(inspired by SerenaJ here )
As i said, keep your car in good shape and they will serve you well and for a long time!
After that, well it's where the wind takes you, for me that is.(but i will always take care for that that carry my family aboard)
Cheers!

[quote="maZZda"]And will try to keep it in stock shape(inspired by SerenaJ here )[/quote]

I love it, I'm turning into a "No Mod" guru!



S

maZZda
They not just rare, they gone... Just in 2 years BG model's are gore form roads. Small chance are that U will see more then 2 or 3, and they will not be in great shape. Good it's still strong word for shape of these cars. Rusty , strange sound with stock exhaust...
Here in Cro young men sell there's F BG models when they got kind. I will not do that.
Why? It is small car but for 5-members family is enough. And still have place for staff...

SerenaJ:
You are not turning into a "No mod" guru, you already are!

So , Serena , I go to do "Laguna bumper conversion" , will that still be stock, or it's ruin car shape?

I've been reading this and thinking about it but there are many reasons why people have got of F's over the past few years
[list] - lack of replacement parts
- high tax on V6's
- likelihood of rust or structural issues
- cost efficiency of new cars especially with purchase incentives
- etc
[/list:u]

I'm in a privileged position where I don't need to use my BA on a daily basis so she stays in the garage away from the elements and only comes out for certain shows/events during the year. As I only use it for the track - mileage and wear is low also. With the amount of money I've spent on my car - the only option is to keep it until it blows up big time or I write it off in the arm-co.

The club itself will be here until there are no members and no cars on the road. Just because more and more F's are ending up in the scrap heap doesn't mean the club has to

[quote="Stjepan"]SerenaJ:
You are not turning into a "No mod" guru, you already are! [/quote]

It's unintentional, seriously

[quote]So , Serena , I go to do "Laguna bumper conversion" , will that still be stock, or it's ruin car shape?[/quote]

I haven't seen the photos for this, so I don't know what it looks like, or how it works. If you're adding a bumper from a different type of car then that's definitely a mod. BUT hey, if you want to do it, then do it!

It's not up to me (or indeed anyone else) to tell other members what to do, or what not to do, with their cars

S

Rust is what I've been noticing, all Mazda's of that age, just look at MX5's, MX6's are the same, nearly every MoT check I look at for 323's and MX6's have advisories or failures for structural and floorpan rust. A report says the MX5 is one of the most reliable modern classic cars you can buy so there's no doubt of their mechanical durability.
Parts I've noticed are very easy to come by, well, for me who's used to trying to get hold of parts for a defunct company - Saab (though to be fair the Swedish Government runs it and modern Saabs are well supported) and a company which no longer trades in Europe (Daihatsu) anything of the same age would be easy

[quote="SerenaJ"]
I haven't seen the photos for this, so I don't know what it looks like, or how it works. If you're adding a bumper from a different type of car then that's definitely a mod. BUT hey, if you want to do it, then do it!

It's not up to me (or indeed anyone else) to tell other members what to do, or what not to do, with their cars

S[/quote]
I pretty sure that is was seen in this forum on BG models.
For exmple past car from Nail F's BG GT (GeeTee, I think).

Yes half of bumper from different type of car, but half is still from Mazda.
Even not so big different look from factory.

I know that is not on U to tell what to do, but I just asking for advice. Definitely U are first person to ask things about "factory" or "not so factory" stuff...

I have found these pics on net...
[img]http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/1/2220/4961/5549980012_large.jpg[/img]
[img]http://s.auto.drom.ru/4/sales/photos/15382/15381714/117740406.jpg[/img]

First one is from Nail F (I think)
Second is random from google images.

Nowhere can found pics how to do that , just finish "product"... So I ask here on forum , and Nail will post pics as soon as he can.
Thx to him I can do that without chance to screw something.

I write too much. I'll get a warning that I make "offtopic".

[quote="Stjepan"]I know that is not on U to tell what to do, but I just asking for advice. Definitely U are first person to ask things about "factory" or "not so factory" stuff...[/quote]

No worries, I'm happy to help / give my own opinion wherever I can

[quote]I write too much. I'll get a warning that I make "offtopic". [/quote]

Yes, you might want to start your own topic about the bumper conversion (unless there's one already)

S

well to bring the topic back I'm worried about my F's next mot having already lost one to the rust monkeys. I have been using a gen 1 mazda 3 2.0 and its nice and handles well but doesn't have the x factor. no soul in my opinion. So liking the ze power and mazda handling I decided to go rotary and bought an rx8 with issues. And after only 1 month she runs, starts hot and cold and accelerates almost as good as the ze. Further problems will arise in the future no doubt but I prefer home built, it makes it family not just transport. Must say the heated leather seats with adjustable lumbar support are lush compared to the F's so rotary logo or not I think I'll be looking to get some installed in the ze.

Well, i just purchased a new 323F, a '00 1.9 Sportive to be precise, with 100k miles on the clock.
I intend to keep on F'in for as long as possible
[img]http://www.project-l.com/images/sport18/bj032.jpg[/img]